Duncan married Margaret (of Angus) Douglas about 14 Oct 1479. Margaret (daughter of Sir George (4th Earl of Angus) Douglas and Isabel Sibbald) was born about 1456; and died. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

Some sources have her marrying Archibald Campbell of Glenyon.

Colin married Janet (of Lorn) Stewart in 1448. Janet (daughter of John (2nd Lord of Lorn) Stewart and Florence\Fingula\Flora (of Ross) Macdonald) was born about 1432; died in Sep 1475. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

Brother of second Earl and Uncle of third Earl. Married.Took part with the King of Scotland against the ninth Earl of Douglas in 1454, and was rewarded with a grant of Douglasdale.
So the Angus branch, as we see, came back into a large part of the inheritance which should have gone to the 1st Earl of Angus as the direct descendant of the 1st Earl of Douglas, rather that to Archibald the Grim, the natural son of Sir James the Good. If this contention is correct, the Angus line is the direct Black Douglas line, as Sir William Fraser suggests.
At this time, the Angus line got the name of the Red Douglas from the complexion of the Earl. A splinter of the bursting cannon, which killed James II, wounded him.

Some sources have a son, Andrew Douglas of Bonjedward. This, however, must be an error.

Philip Nisbet of that ilk married (1) in November 1524, Mariota Hoppringill, daughter of the deceased William Hoppringill of Torwoodlie; and (2) Isobel, daughter of David Home of Wedderburn and his wife Alison Douglas, sister of Archibald (Bell-the-cat), fifth earl of Angus. The second alliance no doubt explains the assistance given by the Nisbets to the Douglases in the struggles of the latter with king James V. I cannot trace this Alison.

George married Isabel Sibbald before 1446. Isabel (daughter of John (Sir) (of Balgony) Sibbald) was born about 1418; died before 21 Feb 1497. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

Some sources say her father was Sir Andrew Sibblad of Balgony

Duncan married Margaret (of Blackhall) Stewart before 12 Mar 1440. Margaret (daughter of Sir John (of Ardgowan) Stewart) was born on 7 Apr 1397; died on 4 Mar 1459-1460. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

Burke's Peerage 106th Edition page 1987 does not name his first wife.
Roddy Macdonald athttp://www.macdonald50.freeserve.co.uk/genealogy/d0002/g0000053.html#I2346
shows his first wife as Florence (of Ross) Macdonald daughterof Alexander(10 Earl Ross Lord o Isles) Macdonald Elizabeth (of Gordon) Setondaughter of Alexander (Sir) (of that Ilk 1stLord Gordon) Seton


"Alba: Celtic Scotland in the Middle Ages" by Edward J. Cowan (Editor),R. Andrew McDonald (Editor). Publisher: Tuckwell Press; (April 2001)ISBN: 1862321515
Page 220 Steve Boarman,
into print in a family history of the Stewarts of Appin. (6) The Appinhistory combined the local oral traditions evidenced by McCrombie's talewith the
authority' of manuscript accounts of the Stewarts of Appin andthe MacLarens of Ardvech. The editors of the history also had recourse tothe printed documentary sources then available for late medievalScotland. The result was a rousing, but still apparently fabulous,account which explained the origins of Stewart lordship in Appin in thefifteenth century. Agreeing with MacCombie, the Appin history assertedthat the progenitor of the Stewarts of Appin was Dougall, an illegitimateson of John Stewart, lord of Lorn. The tale narrated how, late in life,John Stewart (also known to tradition as John Mourach or Leper John)decided to marry Dougall's mother, a daughter of the MacLaren lord ofArdvech (near Lochearnhead), and retrospectively legitimise their son sothat he might succeed to the lordship of Lorn. On the morning of thewedding, as John's bride-to-be and his son approached Dunstaffnage Castlewith a MacLaren escort, banners flying and pipes playing, the Lord ofLorn received a fatal wound from an assassin, Allan McDougal. John wasmade of stern stuff, however, and if there is any substance to his bynamehe may have been long prepared for his own death and long inured tophysical suffering. In a melodramatic conclusion to the tale the oldlord, his life ebbing away, ground through the marriage ceremony in orderto secure the lordship for his son. After John's death, the Appin historyresentfully records the sweeping aside of Dougall's rights by the nakedpolitical and military power of his adversaries, notably Colin Campbell,earl of Argyll and his uncle Colin Campbell of Clenorchy, who weremarried to Dougall's legitimate sisters.' (7)

At first sight the Stewart tale seems an obvious invention, the wishfulfillment of a family whose illegitimate ancestor was rightly debarredfrom succeeding to his father's lands and title. Manuscript historiesassociated with Clan Campbell, such as the Black Book of Taymouth,provide a far more prosaic and bland account of the circumstances behindEarl Colin's acquisition of Lorn. The earl's right, we are told, restedsquarely on his marriage to Isabel Stewart, one of three daughters andco-heiresses of John Stewart, the last Stewart lord of Lorn who wasR


6. J. and D. Stewart, The Stewarts of Appin (Edinburgh 1880). The talewas obviously considerably older, for its outlines can be discerned In amanuscript *associated with Clan Campbell dating from 1756. ArgyllRecords, 9-10.
7. Stewart and Stewart, Stewarts of Appin, 73-96. The account alsoincludes four stanzas of a Gaelic poem apparently commemorating the marchof Dougall and his mother from Loch Earn to Dunstaffnage. It may besignificant that John's by- name is found only in Campbell sources.Argyll Records 9.

*"manuscript, which, based upon internal references, was apparentlywritten in 1634, based upon the writings of highland seanachies"sometimes to be keeped in Abbeys." The manuscript was copied in 1756and kept in the British Museum. The manuscript was printed in 1885 aspart of RECORDS OF ARGYLL: LEGENDS, TRADITIONS, AND RECOLLECTIONS OFARGYLLSHIRE HIGHLANDERS, by Lord Archibald Campbell. This is the samemanuscript that is quoted in THE STEWARTS OF APPIN by J. and D. Stewart,published in 1880"

Received from Doug Hickling
Dhhic@comcast.net
510-655-6896

Note Florence (of Ross) Macdonald, was previously shown as a daughter ofAlexander (10th Earl of Ross/Lord of the Isles) Macdonald and his wifeElizabeth (of Gordon) Seton.
Below from Doug Hickling
1. I have several suggestions regarding your sheet for John (2nd Lord ofLorn) Stewart ID: I37478. The first question is who was John's wife, themother of his daughters all of whom seem to have married Campbells? Youseem to cite Roddy Macdonald's website for the view that John's wife was"Florence (of Ross) Macdonald," a daughter of Alexander (10th Earl ofRoss/Lord of the Isles) Macdonald and his wife Elizabeth (of Gordon)Seton. I asked Roddy for his authority supporting this, and he respondedthat he did not remember his source as he had collected the information along time ago when he did not realize that it was important to keep trackof one's sources.

I will show that Roddy is partly right and partly wrong. There isancient authority for the view that John married "the Lord of Isles andEarl of Ross's daughter, upon whom he begot the three heretrixes." Thisinformation is contained in a manuscript, which, based upon internalreferences, was apparently written in 1634, based upon the writings ofhighland seanachies "sometimes to be keeped in Abbeys." The manuscriptwas copied in 1756 and kept in the British Museum. The manuscript wasprinted in 1885 as part of RECORDS OF ARGYLL: LEGENDS, TRADITIONS, ANDRECOLLECTIONS OF ARGYLLSHIRE HIGHLANDERS, by Lord Archibald Campbell.This is the same manuscript that is quoted in THE STEWARTS OF APPIN by J.and D. Stewart, published in 1880, to which you refer in your presentnote. Under your note 6 you say that the manuscript dates from 1756, butthe original, as I state above, dates from 1634. Despite the publicationof the manuscript and the fact that the information contained thereingenerally appears to be highly accurate, most sources, including SP andCP, have regarded the name of John's wife to be unknown, no doubtreflecting the lack of any contemporary records placing a name on hiswife.

Such a contemporary record was found in a registry of Papal recordscalled VATICAN ARCHIVES: REGISTER OF SUPPLICATIONS, available only onmicrofilm at the Scottish History Department of the University ofGlasgow. The key entry appears to be "B36. 16 November 1447. John deLorn and Fingula de Insulis. Reg. Supp., 421, 35v," as printed at 244 inACTS OF THE LORDS OF THE ISLES 1336 - 1493 (1986), edited by Jean and R.W. Munro, a copy of which is enclosed. As I understand it, the name"Fingula" is probably a Latin form of the name Flora, which is sometimeschanged to Florence in English.

This entry seems to confirm the 1634 manuscript as to the name of John'swife, but it does not state the names of Fingula/Flora's father andmother. The Munros, at 301, place Flora as a daughter, not of Alexander,but rather of his father Donald, Lord of the Isles. The Munros seem tobe correct. They are supported by chronology based upon Flora'sestimated date of birth. Flora and her husband John (of Lorn) Stewartwere the parents of three daughters. Most of the authorities, based uponthe venerable, but frequently unreliable, BLACK BOOK OF TAYMOUTH, holdthat Isabel Stewart, who married Colin Campbell, the future lst Earl ofArgyll, was the eldest daughter, but this is ruled out by chronology. InMarch 1449, John of Lorn granted Sir Colin Campbell of Glenurchy certainlands in the lordship of Lorn on account of Glenurchy's marriage to JanetStewart, John of Lorn's daughter. (SP 2: 176) Assuming that Janet'smarriage took place a few months earlier, in 1448, and that she was 16 atthe time of her marriage, her birth year would be no later than 1432.

At the time of Janet's marriage to Glenurchy in 1448, the latter'snephew, Colin Campbell, later 1st Earl of Argyll, was still a child ashe seems to have been about 20 at the death of his grandfather Sir DuncanCampbell in 1453, at about which time he married Isabel. The year ofIsablel's marriage may be deduced from the contract, dated 14 September1469, for the marriage of Marion Campbell, third child of Isabel andColin, to George, 2nd Lord Seton, Marion was at that time 12 years ofage, which means that her parents must have married about 1453. (SP 1:334, as amended SP 9: 18-19) If Isabel was 16 at the time of hermarriage in 1453, her birth year would be 1437, making her about fiveyears younger than her sister Janet. Based upon Janet's estimated birthyear of 1432, her mother Flora Macdonald would have married John of Lornno later than 1431, giving Flora an estimated birth year of about 1415.These dates demonstrate that Flora was a sister, not a daughter, ofAlexander Macdonald, lord of the Isles and later earl of Ross. In theirACTS OF THE LORDS OF THE ISLES, at 302, the Munros state that Alexander"was apparently married by 1431" and that his eldest son John "seems tohave been born c. 1434," just two years after the birth of Flora's eldestdaughter Janet.

The fact that the entry in the Register of Supplications, quoted above,is dated 1447, does not mean that Flora Macdonald and John Stewart ofLorn did not have a Celtic secular marriage in 1431 or earlier. Suchnon-canonical marriages were considered valid and the children of thesemarriages were regarded as legitimate. A problem arose, however, if themarital parties were related within prohibited degrees of consanguinityor affinity as determined by canon law. Under edicts of the LateranCouncil of 1215, even marriages between third cousins--the fourth degreeof consanguinity--were void. The children resulting from such secularmarriages were deemed illegitimate unless the parents were in good faithunaware of the canonical impediment. Further, where the marriage was notpreceded by banns, there was a presumption of bad faith. Asgreat-grandchildren of King Robert II, Flora and John were second cousinsand thus within the third degree of consanguinity.

Until the 17th century, couples who had contracted Celtic secularmarriages regularly sought papal dispensations from the impediments to aChurch marriage arising from the fact that they were related within theprohibited degree of consanguinity or affinity and either knew or werepresumed to have known of the barrier. Such dispensations appear to havebeen freely granted, particularly in Scotland, where a high proportion ofmarriages among the upper classes were between cousins. Not only did thedispensation followed by a canonical marriage serve to legitimate theparties' existing children--no small accomplishment when the parents weretrying to make certain that their offspring would enjoy full rights ofinheritance--but also it relieved the parties of the sin offornication--also an important consideration.
Douglas Hickling
Dhhic@comcast.com
516 Blair Avenue
Piedmont CA 94611
(August 2003)


"I suggest some modifications to your sheet for IDI37478. As CP, SP andevery other source I have found say, John of Lorn had only threedaughters, all by his first wife. They are (1) Janet, born about 1432,who married Sir Colin Campbell of Glenurchy; (2) Isabel, born about 1437,who married Colin Campbell, 1st Earl of Argyll; and (3) Marion, statedwithout much authority to have married Arthur Campbell of Otter."
Douglas Hickling
Dhhic@comcast.com
516 Blair Avenue
Piedmont CA 94611
(August 2003)

SP = Scots Peerage
CP = The Complete Peerage by G E Cokyane

John married Florence\Fingula\Flora (of Ross) Macdonald before 1431. Florence\Fingula\Flora (daughter of Donald (2nd\8th Lord of The Isles) Macdonald and Mary (Countess of Ross) Leslie) was born about 1415; died in 1463. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

For explanation of her parents see Notes under her husband John (2nd Lordof Lorn) Stewart, by
Douglas Hickling
Dhhic@comcast.com
516 Blair Avenue
Piedmont CA 94611
(August 2003)

William married Margaret (of Locherwort & Yester) Hay on 3 Dec 1414. Margaret (daughter of Sir William (of Locherwort & Yester) Hay and Alicia (of Erroll) Hay) died after 1484. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]