Notes:

See also
http://home.gci.net/~airloom/jcb/d1086.htm#P2007
Ancestors of John Chris BARNETT
http://home.gci.net/~airloom/jcb/jcb.htm
John Barnett
P.O. Box 240651
Douglas, Alaska USA 99824
airloom@ak.net
Source
102. William Balbirnie. An Account of the Family of Vance - Historicaland genealogical account from the earliest days to the present time ofthe family of Vance in Ireland, Vans in Scotland, anciently Vaux inScotland and England, originally de Vaux in France, latin de Vallibus.1861.

Family/Spouse: William (Lord of Dirleton) De Vaux. William (son of Johannes (Lord of Dirleton) De Vaux) died in 1364. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

1. William (Lord of Dirleton) (De Vallibus) De Vaux was born about 1304; died in 1392.

Notes:

Archibald Douglas, Earl of Douglas and Wigtown, Lord of Galloway, Douglas and Bothwell, called Archibald the Grim or Black Archibald, was a late medieval Scottish nobleman. Archibald was the bastard son of Sir James "the Black" Douglas, Robert I's trusted lieutenant, and an unknown mother. A first cousin of William 1st Earl of Douglas, he inherited the earldom of Douglas and its entailed estates as the third earl following the death without legitimate issue of James 2nd Earl of Douglas at the Battle of Otterburn.

He may, or may not, have had the same mother as William.

Archibald married Joan\Johana (of Strathearn) Moray in 1362. Joan\Johana (daughter of Sir Maurice (9th Earl of Strathearn) Moray and Joanna Menteith) was born about 1350; died in Aug 1409 in Threave Castle, Galloway; was buried in Aug 1429. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

"Douglas, James (Sir) "Good James (Sir)/Black Douglas" b. 1286. d. August25, 1330.
James of Douglas was the friend and ablest lieutenant of Robert theBruce. Known as the Black Douglas to the English and as the Good James(Sir) to the Scots, Douglas was a brilliant fighter and master ofguerrilla warfare. He commanded the left wing of Bruce's army at thebattle of Bannockburn. Before his death, Bruce asked Douglas to take hisheart on a crusade to the Holy Land. Douglas set out bearing Bruce'sheart in a silver casket, but on the way fell fighting the Moors inSpain. The Scottish knights who survived brought back Douglas's bodywhich was entombed in the town of Douglas and Bruce's heart which wasburied in Melrose Abbey.
St Bride's Kirk, Douglas, Lanarkshire, Scotland.
Cause of Death: killed in battle with the Moors."

From
Ancestors of Francis, Celia & Hugo Hodgson
Contact: Richard Hodgson
http://awt.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=ancestorsearch&id=I5036
This site shows him as son of Eleanor De Louvayne

James + Unknown. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

(Research):??? Maurice de Moravia, 1st Earl of Strathearn

Died:
Battle Of Nevilles Cross

Maurice married Joanna Menteith on 11 Jul 1339. Joanna (daughter of Sir John (of Rusky & Knapdale) De Menteith) died after 1366. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

"..Joan Menteith, whom you show as the wife of Malise 7th Earl ofStrathearn and as the mother of Malise 8th Earl. The article at SP 8:251says that Joan and the 7th Earl were childless, and CP says that themother of Malise 8th Earl was the first wife of the 7th Earl and that hername is not recorded. CP 12 (part 2) 385. Joan was apparently ageneration younger than her first husband as CP as cited next above saysthat she married him around 1323 and that Malise the 8th Earl succeededhis father between 1323 and 1329.

It is true as you show that Mary of Strathearn, daughter of Malise 8thEarl of Strathearn and Marjory of Ross married John (of Drumsargard)Moray, but this marriage came too late for her to have been the mother ofSir Maurice (9th Earl of Strathearn) Moray. The SP article cited nextabove at 387-388 says that Maurice was more probably born from a priorwife of his father. It points out that Maurice was one of the Scottishleaders who in 1335 rejected terms of peace offered by Edward III. Thedate of Mary of Strathearn's marriage to Maurice was between 1319 and1322. The article concludes on this point saying she could hardly havebeen the mother of grown men in 1335. The article also points out that,when Maurice had dispensation for his marriage to Joan Menteith, Countessof Strathearn and widow of the 7th Earl, on 11 July 1339, no mention wasmade of the 7th Earl, who, if Mary was Maurice's mother, would have beenhis grandfather. I add the comment that Maurice's bride would also havebeen his stepgrandmother.

On this issue, SP 8:255-256 says that there is no evidence on which onecan validly determine the identity of Maurice's mother, and that thefacts indicate that she was probably an earlier wife of Maurice'sfather. It explains that the date of the marriage to John (ofDrumsargard) Moray can be established by the dates of various propertytransfers to him and to the heirs of Mary between 1318 and 1322. MauriceMoray is first named on record in 1335 as one of the leaders of thepatriotic party in Scotland, and he was among those who rejected terms ofpeace offered them by Edward III. A chronicler stated that in 1335,Maurice Moray slew Godfrey Ross because, through trickery, he had killedMaurice's brother in what was supposed to have been a fair fight. Itseems clear that, if Mary was Maurice's mother, he could not have beenborn until after 1318, which would have made him, at most, 16 years oldin 1335, hardly old enough to have revenged the slaying of a brother andto be serving as a political leader. Further, the article says that, on2 December 1336, King Edward Baliol of Scotland granted the barony ofDrumsargard and all the lands of Maurice de Moravia on the South of theFourth to Anthony de Lucy as Maurice was then an enemy and rebel. Thesefacts show that Maurice had probably already inherited his father'spossessions and was already a well-established landowner by 1336,indicating that he was of age and certainly not a teen-age boy.

Additionally, when Maurice obtained a dispensation in 1339 to marry JoanMenteith, she was two times a widow having married first, about 1323,Malise, seventh Earl of Strathearn. Assuming that she was 18 at the timeof her first marriage, she would have been 34 when she married Maurice.If he was about the same age as his bride, he would have been born in1305, whereas Mary of Strathearn did not marry Maurice's father until atleast 1318! In summary, the facts do strongly support the point thatMaurice's mother was an earlier unidentified wife of John (of Drumargard)Moray."

From Douglas Hickling, Dhhic@comcast.net, 516 Blair Avenue, Piedmont, CA94611. 1 February 2002

SP=THE SCOTS PEERAGE was edited by James (Sir) Balfour Paul. 9 volumes.Volume 1 published in 1904 and volume 8 in 1911. Volume 9, before 1925(includes the index)

CP= THE COMPLETE PEERAGE
Complete Peerage of England, Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain & theUnited
Kingdom : by G. E. Cokayne (Hardcover - March 2001]

William + Elizabeth Stewart. Elizabeth (daughter of Alexander (4th High Steward of Scotland) Stewart and Jean (of Bute) Macrory) and died. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

John + Mary of Strathearn. Mary (daughter of Malise (Earl of Orkney) 8Th Earl of Strathearn and Marjory of Ross) and died. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

"...that Mary of Strathearn, daughter of Malise 8th Earl of Strathearnand Marjory of Ross married John (of Drumsargard) Moray, but thismarriage came too late for her to have been the mother of Sir Maurice(9th Earl of Strathearn) Moray. The SP article cited next above at387-388 says that Maurice was more probably born from a prior wife of hisfather. It points out that Maurice was one of the Scottish leaders whoin 1335 rejected terms of peace offered by Edward III. The date of Maryof Strathearn's marriage to Maurice was between 1319 and 1322. Thearticle concludes on this point saying she could hardly have been themother of grown men in 1335. The article also points out that, whenMaurice had dispensation for his marriage to Joan Menteith, Countess ofStrathearn and widow of the 7th Earl, on 11 July 1339, no mention wasmade of the 7th Earl, who, if Mary was Maurice's mother, would have beenhis grandfather. I add the comment that Maurice's bride would also havebeen his stepgrandmother.

On this issue, SP 8:255-256 says that there is no evidence on which onecan validly determine the identity of Maurice's mother, and that thefacts indicate that she was probably an earlier wife of Maurice'sfather. It explains that the date of the marriage to John (ofDrumsargard) Moray can be established by the dates of various propertytransfers to him and to the heirs of Mary between 1318 and 1322. MauriceMoray is first named on record in 1335 as one of the leaders of thepatriotic party in Scotland, and he was among those who rejected terms ofpeace offered them by Edward III. A chronicler stated that in 1335,Maurice Moray slew Godfrey Ross because, through trickery, he had killedMaurice's brother in what was supposed to have been a fair fight. Itseems clear that, if Mary was Maurice's mother, he could not have beenborn until after 1318, which would have made him, at most, 16 years oldin 1335, hardly old enough to have revenged the slaying of a brother andto be serving as a political leader. Further, the article says that, on2 December 1336, King Edward Baliol of Scotland granted the barony ofDrumsargard and all the lands of Maurice de Moravia on the South of theFourth to Anthony de Lucy as Maurice was then an enemy and rebel. Thesefacts show that Maurice had probably already inherited his father'spossessions and was already a well-established landowner by 1336,indicating that he was of age and certainly not a teen-age boy. "

Doug Hickling
516 Blair Avenue
Piedmont CA 94611

510-655-6896
Dhhic@comcast.net

SP= THE SCOTS PEERAGE
CP= The COMPLETE PEERAGE

Notes:

Doug Hickling. Dhhic@comcast.net, points out that in
A HISTORY OF THE CLAN CAMPBELL vol. I, by Alastair Campbell of Airds

"At page 83, the author says that ANE ACCOMPT got confused about Helena"saying she was a daughter of a son of the Earl of Lennox; in fact, shewas almost certainly the daughter of John (Sir) Monteith, Robert Bruce'sformer enemy and then loyal supporter, "


I believe that the John (Sir) Menteith whom you list as Keeper of theCastle, and as the father of Helena Menteith, who married Colin (Sir)(Lord of Lochow) Campbell, is the same person whom you list also as both(1) John (Sir) (of Rusky & Knapdale) Menteith, father of Joan Menteith,who married Malise 7th Earl of Strathearn and as (2) John (Sir) (ofRusky) Menteith, whose daughter Joanna Menteith married Sir Maurice (9thEarl of Strathearn) Moray and became the mother of Joan/Joanna (ofStrathearn) Moray. The name of John (Sir) Menteith lives in infamy inScotland because of his role in turning William Wallace over to theEnglish. SP 6:132 makes clear that John (Sir) was possessor of the landsof Rusky and perhaps also of Knapdale. His son, John (Sir) Menteith,married Ellen, daughter of Gratney, Earl of Mar, and their daughterChristian married Edward (Sir) Keith of Sinton, by whom she had adaughter Janet, wife first of David (Sir) Barclay of Brechin, and secondof Thomas (Sir) Erskine. The SP article says that Joanna is the only oneof the daughters of the earlier John (Sir) Menteith who can be tracedwith certainty. She was married first to Malise, seventh Earl ofStrathearn, second to John Campbell, Earl of Atholl, and third to SirMaurice of Moray, created Earl of Strathearn in 1344, by whom she had adaughter Joanna, married first to Thomas (Sir) Moray of Bothwell andsecond to Archibald (Sir) Douglas, 3rd Earl of Douglas.

In THE RED BOOK OF MENTEITH, by William Fraser (1880), at page 460, it isstated that, in addition to Joana, who married two of the Earls ofStrathearn, there was another unnamed daughter who married Archibald(Sir) Campbell of Lochaw. This unnamed daughter has been identified byAlastair Campbell of Airds, in his HISTORY OF CLAN CAMPBELL, Volume I,(2000), at 83, as Helena, who married Colin (Sir) (Lord of Lochow)Campbell, and who was almost certainly the daughter of John (Sir)Menteith. When you consolidate all three of these John (Sir) Menteithsinto one person, I suggest that you might want to identify him as ofRusky, since his being the keeper of Dumbarton Castle, to which he wasappointed in 1304, leading to his role in the capture of Wallace in 1305,was only one of the activities in his career. He no longer commanded thefortress after 1307, and became a firm supporter of King Robert I. In1320, he joined other Scottish nobles in the famous letter to the Pope inwhich they defended the right of their king and sought the Pontiffssupport on behalf of peace with England. Later, he was sent to Englandas one of the envoys who, in 1323, negotiated a treaty of peace withEngland, which endured for 13 years, and under which England recognizedScotland as an independent kingdom.


From Douglas Hickling, Dhhic@comcast.net, 516 Blair Avenue, Piedmont, CA94611. 1 February 2002

SP=THE SCOTS PEERAGE was edited by James (Sir) Balfour Paul. 9 volumes.Volume 1 published in 1904 and volume 8 in 1911. Volume 9, before 1925(includes the index)

CP= THE COMPLETE PEERAGE
Complete Peerage of England, Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain & theUnited
Kingdom : by G. E. Cokayne (Hardcover - March 2001]