Angus + Mary (of Argyll) Campbell. Mary (daughter of Colin (1st Earl of Argyll) 2nd Lord Campbell and Isabel\Elizabeth (of Lorn) Stewart) and died. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

John married Elizabeth (of Calender) Livingstone in 1464 in 0or 1449. Elizabeth (daughter of James (of Callendar) 1st Lord Livingston and Marion Berwick) died in Possibly Dsp. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

For the sources of information, see in this file under "INFORMATION,Sources of" and also "INFORMATION, General Clan Genealogy ".

Which includes
Royal and Noble Genealogical Data on the Web
http://www.dcs.hull.ac.uk/public/genealogy/
Index to royal Genealogical Data - ordered by lastname" atwww.dcs.hull.ac.uk/public/genealogy/royal/gedx.html
Peerages in Order of Precedence atwww.dcs.hull.ac.uk/public/genealogy/royal/peerage.html
Author: Brian Tompsett
This contains a huge amount of information including a great deal onBritish Peer's lineages, and Royal families of the many countries.
&
Stirnet Genealogy
Families Database
http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/genfam.htm
This has a huge amount of information on hundreds (and rapidlyincreasing), mostly landed, families. It is more "user friendly" thanmost in that it shows many generations on one page.
&
BURKE'S Genealogical and Heraldic History of the PEERAGE BARONETAGE ANDKNIGHTAGE.
Edited by Peter Townend. Burke's Peerage Limited, London
"Burke's Peerage" popular name.

Colin married Isabel\Elizabeth (of Lorn) Stewart about 1453. Isabel\Elizabeth (daughter of John (2nd Lord of Lorn) Stewart and Florence\Fingula\Flora (of Ross) Macdonald) was born about 1437; died on 26 Oct 1510. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

The case of the identity of Alexander's wife, who was mother of his heirJohn and two daughters, illustrates some of the difficulties faced inidentifying spouse's maiden names and their parents. Even such meticulousand experienced researchers as Jean Munro, Ph.D., and R. W. Munro canapparently be led astray, as the two letters from Douglas Hickling belowillustrate.
The "note of a discharge" mentioning "Dame Elizabeth Haliburton, countessof Ross," is dated 40 years after Isabel (of Albany) Stewart firsthusband's death and close to that after her second marriage. Given that,and the differences in first names, this may not be the end of thisdiscussion. So Elizabeth (probably of Dirleton) Halyburton shown here aspossibly one of his wives may or may not have existed.

1st letter from Douglas Hickling based on research of Jean Munro, Ph.D.,and R. W. Munro.
"I am going to comment on the name of Alexander's wife. Virtually all ofthe authorities state, without any documentary proof, that Alexander'swife was Elizabeth Seton, a daughter of Sir Alexander Seton and his wifeElizabeth Gordon. The Munros in their ACTS OF THE LORDS 0F THE ISLES, at302-303 and elsewhere provide convincing evidence that Elizabeth'ssurname was Haliburton. At, 63, the Munros set forth a 1443 note of adischarge to Sir John Scrymgeour by "Dame Elizabeth Haliburton, countessof Ross," apparently the only contemporary record which gives Elizabeth'ssurname. The Munros, at 241, set forth a reference to a papal indult,dated 19 October 1433, to Alexander and Jacobella, his wife, for aportable altar. There seems to be no other record of this earliermarriage or of any children resulting therefrom. On 2 November 1467,Alexander's son John granted a charter confirming a gift to the monasteryof Fearn "for the salvation of the souls of his parents, Alexander earlof Ross and Elizabeth his wife." (See Munros, at 143.) This shows thatElizabeth, not Jacobella, was John's mother. BURKE'S PEERAGE &BARONETAGE (106th edition), at 328, accepts "Elizabeth Halyburton,probably of Dirletoun," as Alexander's wife. "
Douglas Hickling
Dhhic@comcast.com
516 Blair Avenue
Piedmont CA 94611
(August 2003)

2nd letter from Douglas Hickling
Based on my previous e-mail to you, you now show that the wife of
Alexander Macdonald ID: I37488, and the mother of John, Lord of the
Isles, was Dame Elizabeth Haliburton.

A correction seems to be needed. In the fall 2003 issue of THE
GENEALOGIST, there is an article by Andrew B. W. MacEwen, beginning at
222, on Cristina de Brus, Countess of Dunbar. At page 225, the author,
as an illustration of the difficulty in sometimes determining a woman's
maiden name, says:

And the twice married Isabella Stewart of Albany in a dischargedated
10 December 1443 was styled "Dame Elizabeth Haliburton, countess of
Ross," taking the rank of her first husband, Alexander Lesley, Earl of
Ross, and the surname of her second husband, Sir Walter Haliburton of
Dirleton--and seriously misleading such acute modern scholars as the
Munros.

Footnote 13 says: "Jean Munro, Ph.D., and R. W. Munro, eds. ACTS OF
THE LORDS OF THE ISLES 1336-1493, Scottish History Society, 4th ser.,
22 (1986); 63, No. 41. Corrected in WEST HIGHLAND NOTES & QUERIES
[Isle of Coll. Argyll], ser. 2, No. 19 (March 1999): 24-25."

The foregoing means that Isabel, daughter of Robert Duke of Albany,
married (in 1398) Alexander, Earl of Ross (died 1402). She
subsequently married Sir Walter Haliburton of Direlton. The wife of
Alexander, Lord of the Isles and Earl of Ross (died 1499) and the
mother of their son John, the last earl of Ross and lord of the Isles,
cannot be named with certainty. As the Munros point out at p. 63 in
their comment regarding the note of a discharge No. 41, and in a
subsequent comment at p. 303, Elizabeth Seton, daughter of Sir
Alexander Seton and Elizabeth Gordon, and sister of the first earl of
Huntly, has been accepted as the wife of Alexander, but she is not so
named in any contemporary record. Her place as the wife of Alexander,
Lord of the Isles and Earl of Ross depends upon a 16th century Gordon
genealogy by John Ferrerius . Ferrerius is generally well-regarded and
I suggest that you may wish to show Elizabeth Seton as the earl's wife.

The Munros were not alone in failing to discern the true identity of
"Dame Elizabeth Haliburton, Countess of Ross," referred to in the note
of a discharge cited above. Complete Peerage V. 11, p. 151, published
in 1949, makes the same mistake.

Doug Hickling
Dhhic@comcast.net
(November 2003)

Alexander married Elizabeth (of Gordon) Seton before 1431. Elizabeth (daughter of Sir Alexander (of That Ilk, 1st Lord Gordon) Set and Elizabeth Gordon) and died. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

In Complete Peerage under "Livingston", Vol 3, (# VIII, pages 90-96)
THE COMPLETE PEERAGE
Complete Peerage of England, Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain & theUnited
Kingdom. Extant, Extinct or Dormant. By G. E. Cokayne. 2000,SuttonPublishing Ltd, Gloucester.

James + Marion Berwick. Marion died between 4 Jun and 19 Oct 1478. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Archibald married Elizabeth (of Carnwath) Somerville before 1432. Elizabeth (daughter of Sir Thomas (of Linton & Carnwath) Somerville and Elizabeth (Aboyne) Keith) was born before 1416; and died. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

(Note: Previously shown as daughter of John (of Carnwath) 2nd LordSomerville. The Scotts Peerage (p 332) says she was "daughter of John,third Lord Somerville of Carnwath" as does Burke's Peerage (106th Ed., p104) but that father does seem imposssible as Doug Hickling & Mr MacEwenpoint out below. Her husband dying Bef. March 1439/40 but John, the 2ndLord of Carnwath marrying firstly in July 10, 1446 and again in March1455/56, and The Complete Peerage shows John, the 3rd Lord, was born in1482 and DSP (Died with out children).

"...you show that Elizabeth Somerville, the mother of Colin (1st Earl ofArgyll) Campbell, was a daughter of John (of Carnwath) 2nd LordSomerville. There is ample evidence, much of it chronological, thatElizabeth's father was Thomas (of Linton and Carnwath) Somerville, whowas frequently called the first Lord Somerville in error. This ThomasSomerville was the grandfather of John, 2nd Lord Somerville.

Archibald/Celestin Campbell, Elizabeth's husband, died "probably before1439," according to SP 9:18. CP 1:198 says that Archibald died betweenApril 1431 and March 1440. As I explain above under part 1, ColinCampbell, the future 1st Earl of Argyll, seems to have been born about1433 as he was about 20 when he succeeded his grandfather in 1453, so hismarriage to Elizabeth must have occurred by 1432. John, 2nd LordSomerville married for the first time on 10 July 1446 (SP 8:12, CP 12,pt. 1:94), So he could not possibly have been Elizabeth's father,
having first married at least fourteen years after Elizabeth's marriageto Archibald Campbell, and long after Archibald's death.

William, 1st Lord Somerville, John's father, was born in or before 1400and was first married in 1428 or 1429 (CP 12, pt. 1:92-93),no more thanthree years before Elizabeth married
Archibald, so he could not have been Elizabeth's father, being ageneration too old. This leaves Sir Thomas Somerville, father ofWilliam, 1st Lord Somerville, as Elizabeth Somerville's probable father.Thomas Somerville was born about 1370 and married (1) Janet Stewartbefore July 1391, and (2) Elizabeth Keith, pursuant to a dispensationdated 2 November 1411. (SP 8: 7-9) Thomas's and Elizabeth's marriagelasted for 25 years, ending with her death in 1436.

The highly respected Andrew B. W. MacEwen, in his article, "The FamilyConnections of Alexander Sutherland of Dunbeath," appearing in THEGENEALOGIST, Fall 1982, vol. 3, No. 2, at 131, states in note 77, at 151,that Elizabeth Somerville was the daughter of Thomas Somerville ofCarnwath, not John, Lord Somerville. MacEwen's assertion is based inpart upon the fact that Thomas Somerville of Carnwath witnessed anindenture, dated 9 July 1432, under which Sir John Scrymgeour and SirDuncan Campbell of Lochow, with the consent of the latter's son and heir,Gillaspy (Archibald), exchanged Sir Duncan's lands of Menstry for SirJohn's lands of Glassarie. This indenture is found, at 165, in vol. 2 ofHIGHLAND PAPERS (Scottish History Society Publications, 2nd series) vol.12 (1916). At 169, note 1, the editor, J. R. N. Macphail, referring toThomas Somerville's participation as a witness, commented that "ArchibaldRoy [the son of Sir Duncan] seems to have been married to his daughter."

"I pointed out above that Elizabeth Somerville must have marriedArchibald Campbell by 1432, so Elizabeth must have been born no laterthan 1416. Of course, Elizabeth and Archibald could have been marriedearlier than 1432 or Elizabeth could have been somewhat older than 16when she married. Elizabeth Keith seems to be the most likely mother ofElizabeth Somerville. Elizabeth Keith was married to Thomas Somervillefrom at least 1411 to about 1436 and they may have married earlier.Further, the first daughters of a marriage were frequently named aftertheir mothers, although the more usual practice was to name the firstdaughter after the maternal grandmother, while the third daughter tookher mother's name."

Douglas Hickling
Dhhic@comcast.com
516 Blair Avenue
Piedmont CA 94611
(August 2003)

SP = Scots Peerage
CP = The Complete Peerage by G E Cokyane

Notes:

Burke's Peerage 106th Edition page 1987 does not name his first wife.
Roddy Macdonald athttp://www.macdonald50.freeserve.co.uk/genealogy/d0002/g0000053.html#I2346
shows his first wife as Florence (of Ross) Macdonald daughterof Alexander(10 Earl Ross Lord o Isles) Macdonald Elizabeth (of Gordon) Setondaughter of Alexander (Sir) (of that Ilk 1stLord Gordon) Seton


"Alba: Celtic Scotland in the Middle Ages" by Edward J. Cowan (Editor),R. Andrew McDonald (Editor). Publisher: Tuckwell Press; (April 2001)ISBN: 1862321515
Page 220 Steve Boarman,
into print in a family history of the Stewarts of Appin. (6) The Appinhistory combined the local oral traditions evidenced by McCrombie's talewith the
authority' of manuscript accounts of the Stewarts of Appin andthe MacLarens of Ardvech. The editors of the history also had recourse tothe printed documentary sources then available for late medievalScotland. The result was a rousing, but still apparently fabulous,account which explained the origins of Stewart lordship in Appin in thefifteenth century. Agreeing with MacCombie, the Appin history assertedthat the progenitor of the Stewarts of Appin was Dougall, an illegitimateson of John Stewart, lord of Lorn. The tale narrated how, late in life,John Stewart (also known to tradition as John Mourach or Leper John)decided to marry Dougall's mother, a daughter of the MacLaren lord ofArdvech (near Lochearnhead), and retrospectively legitimise their son sothat he might succeed to the lordship of Lorn. On the morning of thewedding, as John's bride-to-be and his son approached Dunstaffnage Castlewith a MacLaren escort, banners flying and pipes playing, the Lord ofLorn received a fatal wound from an assassin, Allan McDougal. John wasmade of stern stuff, however, and if there is any substance to his bynamehe may have been long prepared for his own death and long inured tophysical suffering. In a melodramatic conclusion to the tale the oldlord, his life ebbing away, ground through the marriage ceremony in orderto secure the lordship for his son. After John's death, the Appin historyresentfully records the sweeping aside of Dougall's rights by the nakedpolitical and military power of his adversaries, notably Colin Campbell,earl of Argyll and his uncle Colin Campbell of Clenorchy, who weremarried to Dougall's legitimate sisters.' (7)

At first sight the Stewart tale seems an obvious invention, the wishfulfillment of a family whose illegitimate ancestor was rightly debarredfrom succeeding to his father's lands and title. Manuscript historiesassociated with Clan Campbell, such as the Black Book of Taymouth,provide a far more prosaic and bland account of the circumstances behindEarl Colin's acquisition of Lorn. The earl's right, we are told, restedsquarely on his marriage to Isabel Stewart, one of three daughters andco-heiresses of John Stewart, the last Stewart lord of Lorn who wasR


6. J. and D. Stewart, The Stewarts of Appin (Edinburgh 1880). The talewas obviously considerably older, for its outlines can be discerned In amanuscript *associated with Clan Campbell dating from 1756. ArgyllRecords, 9-10.
7. Stewart and Stewart, Stewarts of Appin, 73-96. The account alsoincludes four stanzas of a Gaelic poem apparently commemorating the marchof Dougall and his mother from Loch Earn to Dunstaffnage. It may besignificant that John's by- name is found only in Campbell sources.Argyll Records 9.

*"manuscript, which, based upon internal references, was apparentlywritten in 1634, based upon the writings of highland seanachies"sometimes to be keeped in Abbeys." The manuscript was copied in 1756and kept in the British Museum. The manuscript was printed in 1885 aspart of RECORDS OF ARGYLL: LEGENDS, TRADITIONS, AND RECOLLECTIONS OFARGYLLSHIRE HIGHLANDERS, by Lord Archibald Campbell. This is the samemanuscript that is quoted in THE STEWARTS OF APPIN by J. and D. Stewart,published in 1880"

Received from Doug Hickling
Dhhic@comcast.net
510-655-6896

Note Florence (of Ross) Macdonald, was previously shown as a daughter ofAlexander (10th Earl of Ross/Lord of the Isles) Macdonald and his wifeElizabeth (of Gordon) Seton.
Below from Doug Hickling
1. I have several suggestions regarding your sheet for John (2nd Lord ofLorn) Stewart ID: I37478. The first question is who was John's wife, themother of his daughters all of whom seem to have married Campbells? Youseem to cite Roddy Macdonald's website for the view that John's wife was"Florence (of Ross) Macdonald," a daughter of Alexander (10th Earl ofRoss/Lord of the Isles) Macdonald and his wife Elizabeth (of Gordon)Seton. I asked Roddy for his authority supporting this, and he respondedthat he did not remember his source as he had collected the information along time ago when he did not realize that it was important to keep trackof one's sources.

I will show that Roddy is partly right and partly wrong. There isancient authority for the view that John married "the Lord of Isles andEarl of Ross's daughter, upon whom he begot the three heretrixes." Thisinformation is contained in a manuscript, which, based upon internalreferences, was apparently written in 1634, based upon the writings ofhighland seanachies "sometimes to be keeped in Abbeys." The manuscriptwas copied in 1756 and kept in the British Museum. The manuscript wasprinted in 1885 as part of RECORDS OF ARGYLL: LEGENDS, TRADITIONS, ANDRECOLLECTIONS OF ARGYLLSHIRE HIGHLANDERS, by Lord Archibald Campbell.This is the same manuscript that is quoted in THE STEWARTS OF APPIN by J.and D. Stewart, published in 1880, to which you refer in your presentnote. Under your note 6 you say that the manuscript dates from 1756, butthe original, as I state above, dates from 1634. Despite the publicationof the manuscript and the fact that the information contained thereingenerally appears to be highly accurate, most sources, including SP andCP, have regarded the name of John's wife to be unknown, no doubtreflecting the lack of any contemporary records placing a name on hiswife.

Such a contemporary record was found in a registry of Papal recordscalled VATICAN ARCHIVES: REGISTER OF SUPPLICATIONS, available only onmicrofilm at the Scottish History Department of the University ofGlasgow. The key entry appears to be "B36. 16 November 1447. John deLorn and Fingula de Insulis. Reg. Supp., 421, 35v," as printed at 244 inACTS OF THE LORDS OF THE ISLES 1336 - 1493 (1986), edited by Jean and R.W. Munro, a copy of which is enclosed. As I understand it, the name"Fingula" is probably a Latin form of the name Flora, which is sometimeschanged to Florence in English.

This entry seems to confirm the 1634 manuscript as to the name of John'swife, but it does not state the names of Fingula/Flora's father andmother. The Munros, at 301, place Flora as a daughter, not of Alexander,but rather of his father Donald, Lord of the Isles. The Munros seem tobe correct. They are supported by chronology based upon Flora'sestimated date of birth. Flora and her husband John (of Lorn) Stewartwere the parents of three daughters. Most of the authorities, based uponthe venerable, but frequently unreliable, BLACK BOOK OF TAYMOUTH, holdthat Isabel Stewart, who married Colin Campbell, the future lst Earl ofArgyll, was the eldest daughter, but this is ruled out by chronology. InMarch 1449, John of Lorn granted Sir Colin Campbell of Glenurchy certainlands in the lordship of Lorn on account of Glenurchy's marriage to JanetStewart, John of Lorn's daughter. (SP 2: 176) Assuming that Janet'smarriage took place a few months earlier, in 1448, and that she was 16 atthe time of her marriage, her birth year would be no later than 1432.

At the time of Janet's marriage to Glenurchy in 1448, the latter'snephew, Colin Campbell, later 1st Earl of Argyll, was still a child ashe seems to have been about 20 at the death of his grandfather Sir DuncanCampbell in 1453, at about which time he married Isabel. The year ofIsablel's marriage may be deduced from the contract, dated 14 September1469, for the marriage of Marion Campbell, third child of Isabel andColin, to George, 2nd Lord Seton, Marion was at that time 12 years ofage, which means that her parents must have married about 1453. (SP 1:334, as amended SP 9: 18-19) If Isabel was 16 at the time of hermarriage in 1453, her birth year would be 1437, making her about fiveyears younger than her sister Janet. Based upon Janet's estimated birthyear of 1432, her mother Flora Macdonald would have married John of Lornno later than 1431, giving Flora an estimated birth year of about 1415.These dates demonstrate that Flora was a sister, not a daughter, ofAlexander Macdonald, lord of the Isles and later earl of Ross. In theirACTS OF THE LORDS OF THE ISLES, at 302, the Munros state that Alexander"was apparently married by 1431" and that his eldest son John "seems tohave been born c. 1434," just two years after the birth of Flora's eldestdaughter Janet.

The fact that the entry in the Register of Supplications, quoted above,is dated 1447, does not mean that Flora Macdonald and John Stewart ofLorn did not have a Celtic secular marriage in 1431 or earlier. Suchnon-canonical marriages were considered valid and the children of thesemarriages were regarded as legitimate. A problem arose, however, if themarital parties were related within prohibited degrees of consanguinityor affinity as determined by canon law. Under edicts of the LateranCouncil of 1215, even marriages between third cousins--the fourth degreeof consanguinity--were void. The children resulting from such secularmarriages were deemed illegitimate unless the parents were in good faithunaware of the canonical impediment. Further, where the marriage was notpreceded by banns, there was a presumption of bad faith. Asgreat-grandchildren of King Robert II, Flora and John were second cousinsand thus within the third degree of consanguinity.

Until the 17th century, couples who had contracted Celtic secularmarriages regularly sought papal dispensations from the impediments to aChurch marriage arising from the fact that they were related within theprohibited degree of consanguinity or affinity and either knew or werepresumed to have known of the barrier. Such dispensations appear to havebeen freely granted, particularly in Scotland, where a high proportion ofmarriages among the upper classes were between cousins. Not only did thedispensation followed by a canonical marriage serve to legitimate theparties' existing children--no small accomplishment when the parents weretrying to make certain that their offspring would enjoy full rights ofinheritance--but also it relieved the parties of the sin offornication--also an important consideration.
Douglas Hickling
Dhhic@comcast.com
516 Blair Avenue
Piedmont CA 94611
(August 2003)


"I suggest some modifications to your sheet for IDI37478. As CP, SP andevery other source I have found say, John of Lorn had only threedaughters, all by his first wife. They are (1) Janet, born about 1432,who married Sir Colin Campbell of Glenurchy; (2) Isabel, born about 1437,who married Colin Campbell, 1st Earl of Argyll; and (3) Marion, statedwithout much authority to have married Arthur Campbell of Otter."
Douglas Hickling
Dhhic@comcast.com
516 Blair Avenue
Piedmont CA 94611
(August 2003)

SP = Scots Peerage
CP = The Complete Peerage by G E Cokyane

John married Florence\Fingula\Flora (of Ross) Macdonald before 1431. Florence\Fingula\Flora (daughter of Donald (2nd\8th Lord of The Isles) Macdonald and Mary (Countess of Ross) Leslie) was born about 1415; died in 1463. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

For explanation of her parents see Notes under her husband John (2nd Lordof Lorn) Stewart, by
Douglas Hickling
Dhhic@comcast.com
516 Blair Avenue
Piedmont CA 94611
(August 2003)